Insights on Building a Successful Career in the Game Industry

Matt Wright is the Environment Art Director at Bad Robot Games. He joins us on the Clear As Mud podcast to share what he’s learned in 20 years of working in the film and game industry, giving an inside look at how immersive and responsive environments are constructed, as well as providing remarkable advice for artists on building a strong portfolio and putting your best work forward in the job interview process.

We’re really grateful that Matt could join us for this podcast and we think our listeners and readers will get a lot out of it, especially if you are a talented artist looking for opportunities in the game industry.

• Matt Wright shares insights on what it takes to get into and maintain a successful career in the game industry.
• Wright emphasizes the importance of staying up to date with new technology and not being afraid to experiment and embrace the unknown.
• He discusses his experience working on the weather effects for Forza 6 and how his team created a wet look for the tracks using a combination of masks, shader effects, and procedural techniques.
• Wright also shares stories from his time working on film sets, including Harry Potter and Master and Commander, and the importance of craftsmanship and attention to detail in the industry.

Wright also shares his experiences with the hiring and interview process for digital artists looking to find work in the game industry.

• Keep your portfolio up to date and experiment with new technology to stay relevant in the industry.
• Don't be afraid to embrace the unknown and try new things. It's important to stay forward-thinking.
• Craftsmanship and attention to detail are highly valued in the industry, both in film and games.
• When applying for a job, make sure to show your ability to work collaboratively as part of a team.
• When you're in an interview, be prepared to talk about your process and how you approach problem-solving.
• When starting a new job, be willing to admit when you don't know something, but also be willing to put in the effort to figure it out. It's important to have a can-do attitude.
• Finally, be passionate about what you do. This industry requires a lot of hard work, and it's important to have a genuine love for your craft to keep you motivated and engaged.

Graham

Hello everyone, and welcome to our podcast, Clear as Mud, where we talk to game developers from all walks of life about their personal and professional journeys. I'm your host, Graham Waldrop. As always, our show is presented by mudstack, the only asset management and collaboration tool custom-built for game studios and digital artists. For more information, head over to mudstack.com. On today's show, we're talking with Matt Wright, Environment Art Director at Bad Robot Games. Matt has worked in both the film and the game industry, including working on some of the Harry Potter movies and the 2003 adventure film Master and Commander: the Far Side of the World.

On the game side of things, before he was at Bad Robot, he's worked at Amazon, Microsoft and Valve. This is a new kind of show for us, which is exciting. Normally in these shows, I'll ask someone at the end of an interview, you know, if someone wants to get into your field in particular, what do they need in their portfolio? And then they'll tell us, and it's all good information, but it's just, it's usually one or two questions. We spend maybe half the episode talking about this. And this was something that was really important to Matt because he's interviewed hundreds of people, hundreds and hundreds of people over his 20-plus years of experience in the industry, and he has a ton of great info for anyone out there who is trying to get into the industry or even people that are in the industry, what you need to do to continue to keep your portfolio up to date, things like that. He's just got a wealth of knowledge.

He has a ton of amusing stories, heartfelt stories, and just incredible insight on what to do and what not to do when you're applying for a job, when you're getting your portfolio ready, and when you're actually in the interview room. And then when you get into a studio, how do you remain relevant? What do you do to ensure that you have a good reputation in the business and that you can continue to have a really fruitful career? So there's a ton of great stuff in here. I think you're gonna like it. Without further ado, here's Matt Wright.

So, Matt, I was looking at some of your work on Artstation and saw what you did on Forza 6 with the weather system in that game. I just have to ask about the process for creating that, because I looked up some gameplay on YouTube, and one thing that's always bothered me about visuals and games is when it comes to water or liquid of any sort, particularly for games that are trying to be as photorealistic as possible, is that the immersion breaks a little bit when it comes to creating moisture in a game. The visuals just never seem to be as up to snuff as they are to the character models or other visuals in the game.

But the work you guys did on this game with the weather effects are just unbelievable. I think I watched like over an hour of footage on YouTube of the gameplay of the weather. I mean, the reflections delighting in the way the raindrops fell or the way that the wire looked on the track as you're driving toward it, or through it, the water effects on the camera. I mean, I was completely blown away by it. So I'd, I'd love to hear how you and your team implemented this system into Forza 6.

Matt Wright

I think that one of the interesting things about Forza is that, and it's one of the reasons I joined the studio, they really push their visuals, right? And they really know the product that they're making. And I think one thing that really helps is because they're so committed to just making this one genre of game that they can just do it really well, right? With something like that, it's a team effort, right? Like, it's not just one person. I was one person working on it along with tech artists and some graphics engineers.

We had a super-talented graphics engineer that coded the water on the lens effect. And yeah, I made some water droplet normals and masks for him, and he put it all together inside of the shader, and that was perfect for that. And, you know, my role really was making the tracks look wet. And I did that alongside a very talented tech artist. And, for me, the biggest challenge was we have this game, we have all of these data for the tracks. We don't want to have to remake everything for the track to be wet, right? Like we don't want to have two versions of Monza and we don't want to have two versions of brands Hatch and everything else, right? Like we want to be able to make the environment look wet using a combination of masks and shader effects and everything else. So what was really interesting, I sat down with my tech artist and we just went over what makes a surface look wet, right? And the basics, if you're, if you're dealing with asphalt, it gets darker, it gets more saturated, and then eventually it starts to get more glossy, and then puddles start to form, and then normal gets flattened, right?

Because the water kind of fills in some of the crevices and, and the micro detail on the surface. But then, but then you look at a car body and because the car body is not porous, that gets wet differently, right? Like, it doesn't darken, you know, water beads up and sits on the surface. So, we worked out this system inside the shader where different surfaces could behave differently to water effects, right? That was really key in making certain things look wet, right? Like it's this big combination of analyzing the real world, a whole ton of shader effects, and then using some smart information with some masks and some wetness masks and puddle masks to try and build this environment somewhat procedurally so that we don't have to recreate all of these maps in the wet., I think one of the biggest reasons we could do it on Forza 6 was because, you know, this had switched to a full PBR shading workflow, which means that finally, we can get pretty accurate reflections, right?

And the reflection tech in Forza was actually really pretty decent.

You know, a lot of it comes off the back of the fact that cars are shiny and they look kind of, and they look kind of rubbish if they're not shiny. So if you're gonna make a racing game, you better make sure the cars look good. So we had some very custom reflection tech for that, which you couldn't really use in the first-person shooter or something like that. But, but this was, you know, a good six years ago I think that we, that we did this and now a lot of that tech we're pushing is pushed into other games, right? Like, and even simulation companies. I spent a year working for a self-driving car simulation company and did really, really similar procedural wet road work for that, for creating virtual environments for self-driving cars to drive around.

And it's, it is a similar process, right? But it was just this time it was inside Unreal. And, you know, I've, I've done some similar stuff at Bad Robot Games as well. So, you know, it's really interesting. And as you know, every year tools get better, computer performance gets better, and we are able to do these things just a little bit more realistically. So you can just kind of build on top of that. And the new weather stuff in, in the latest Forza looks unbelievable. And then it's kind of built on top of that original work that we did back on Forza 6.

Graham

Man, that's great stuff. I was gonna ask how much real-world research did you guys do?

Matt Wright

Thankfully, I live in the Pacific Northwest, so it's really not hard to get.

Graham

Yeah, you just gotta wake up, right? And just look outside.

Matt Wright

Exactly. Yeah. I walk my kid to school, and I've got enough wet research there. You know, I think the other really interesting stuff that's coming around the corner is if you use Unreal, like being able to do rain particles so much better than we ever could, right? Like, you don't have to do a cheesy screen effect anymore, and you can combine it with a bunch of really good-looking volumetric mist and everything else. And that's, that's half of the travel is actually getting that lighting right? And we, on Forza 6, we had a great lighting director and we were able to really help sell that wet look. So we, with tools getting better, this stuff gets easier and easier for sure. And computer power gets better. We can have more realistic weather effects.

Graham

Well, hats off to the work you guys did, man. As I said, unbelievable stuff. And I guess I need to check out the new Forza just to see how the team iterated upon the work you guys did.

Matt Wright

That was one of the cool things working there I think just the focus that everybody had on their little particular things that they were working on. Like everybody was obsessed with getting things correct and, and looking real. It was, it was good for somebody that has kind of O C D and that attention to detail. It was really fun to work with a team like that.

Graham

I remember, you know, when we first met, you said you didn't start out in video games. You actually started out in industrial design, but you didn't really like industrial design, right?

Matt Wright

Yeah. It was interesting. So I'm from the UK, I was from the south of the UK and I went to university for industrial design. I always had this love of both art and science and industrial design seemed like a good fit for combining those things together. And yeah, it was a pretty intensive four-year university course, and I just, I just found myself gravitating more towards the actual 3D work. So, in this course, you not only designed products, but then you modeled them in 3D using cat software and everything else. And that's what I loved doing. I loved making these designs in 3d.

It was super fun. And hey, I left university and a buddy of mine at university, we were like, what are we gonna do? I don't really want to go and work for a design firm and have a guy in a gray suit pick out the most boring design and that gets shipped. And I'm like, I really enjoyed doing 3D graphics. So he and I started a graphics company and we did a crazy bunch of work for architects and designers.

We did some work for the Ministry of Defense around some weapons systems. It was contact with contracted through an outside agency. And, you know, it was, it was really interesting. It was like I was 20, 22, 23 at the time and, you know, you're, you're dealing with some pretty big contracts and dealing with people.

It was really interesting, you know, it was kind of a baptism of fire really jumping into some of this stuff. And that eventually led me into the film industry in a strange way. I was on a chat forum for 3D graphics, and there was a guy there that I talked to for years, and he just pinged me one day and was like, “Hey, I'm, I'm doing some work for a company that's making a bunch of film sets for Harry Potter. It's not really the work I wanna do. They need to find somebody else to do it. Would you be interested?” I'm like, this is the weirdest way to get a job ever on some IRC chat program, right? It's like, this is, this is bizarre.

Graham

Well, especially for a franchise like that, right? I mean, we're talking about one of the biggest film franchises in the world.

Matt Wright

Yeah. So the interesting thing was, it's, it's not like, you know, it's, it's not like the film company came to me. This was a small production house that had been outsourced, to make a bunch of like, set extensions and film sets and everything else. So I, I drive down and I meet them, I meet the owner of this company and he's living on this estate and I meet with him and they're a cool bunch of guys. They've got, a lidar scanner. And so we would go in and we'd scan film sets and then rebuild stuff from there. And did that for a couple of years.

Great time in my early twenties. Crazy bunch of people, and crazy projects.

But I think one of the cool things was that because you're a small team, you never really said no to anything, right? It's like, we need to keep this company going and eat. And it's like, all right, we're just gonna figure out how we're gonna do this. Right? And I think that experience kept that mentality in my head for the rest of my career moving forward. So wherever I go there, I always had this mentality of, this needs to get done. Nobody knows how to do it. I'm gonna admit I don't know how to do this, but I'm sure as heck gonna take a look and try and figure it out and, you know, maybe I'll need two or three graphics engineers to help me figure it out.

Maybe it's impossible, but let's, let's take a look and see, see how we can do it.

Graham

So you really like to embrace the unknown?

Matt Wright

I think that's the fun part. And I think that's one of the things that's kept me in this industry for so long, right? That there's always, there's always new ways to do things. Technology improves, the software improves, and computers get better. And you know, if you don't keep up with that and if you don't experiment and try new things, then you're gonna be left behind in this industry. Right? I never wanted to be that person that I hate, I don't wanna rag on accountants, but I, but never saw myself sitting in a suit at a desk doing the same thing every day for 20 years and then collecting my pension and going off and retiring somewhere. That just didn't interest me.

So yeah, I like embracing the unknown and trying different things. Not being afraid to fail, I think, is so important. It's scary as all heck, but it's important.

Graham

Yeah, I think that's something that's really cool about the industry is that the people that have been in it the longest, you know, for like 20 or 30 years that we've talked to, are always the most forward-thinking. They actually embrace the new technology. And that's not to say that we've talked to people that don't have as much experience that isn't of the same mindset they are. But I think that's really cool that the old guard isn't so set in their ways. Cause you know, you run into other people who have worked in other industries that do get very set in their ways and it makes sense.

But when something new comes along that could actually improve what they're doing, they don't embrace it. It's a fear of change. And I think if you do fear change and you're working in the game industry, then you will be left behind.

Matt Wright

Yeah. You will be, especially in this industry, right? And, and I, I, I don't wanna rag on the account and see like maybe there's like some…

Graham

It’s cool, this is the anti-accountant show.

Matt Wright

Like maybe there's some cool tech that comes out every year and accountants go crazy for it. I think just the more creative industries, whether you're in advertising, marketing, film, games, you know, music, acting there's always something new there to explore. And I think that you know, I think it's healthy, it keeps your interest going.

Graham

Totally agree. Totally agree. So is there any particular film you worked on that you can look back on and say like, I'm really proud of the work we did on that one?

Matt Wright

You know, there were a few, like working on Harry Potter was honestly awesome.

I'd read the books and then just to see the detail and the craftsmanship in these film sets was just incredible. Right? And then the film props as well. And it's really interesting. You can walk around today. I'm an architecture nerd, you could walk around today and you can see some of the cheap rubbishy condos that are getting built and you're like, there is just no talent in architecture anymore unless you push into the million dollar homes and everything else. And you look at the stuff and it's like, where is people's love for this? Right?

Like 200 years ago you couldn't have built this, right? Like, where has all of that gone? And then you walk to a film set like Harry Potter, and there is an insane amount of really talented craftsmen doing amazing work, right? And you walk in there and you're like, this is unbelievable. From the people that are framing in the great hall, to the people that are making wands and building all of these small little set pieces, it's like, this is incredible work. And it was amazing just to feel part of that. And it's like, I had a tiny, small little part in this, right? And you walk into that and you're like, there is insane craftsmanship here.

And then the thing that saddens you the most is like that filming's done, they've got their shot, some of that gets torn down and chucked in a skip outside the building, right? And it's like, how can you throw this stuff away? But you just can't, you can't keep it. So that was a really interesting one. And then did some work for the Master and Commander building.

Graham

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The Russell Crow movie, right?

Matt Wright

Russell Crow movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Building some ships for that. And we a reference trip to Boston to gather a bunch of references from the USS Constitution over in Boston.

So we had a week on the USS Constitution, and that's, it was in a naval yard and it was an active Navy base, so we'd go there every day, there'd be the Navy there. They would be on the ship whilst we were taking photographs and laser scanning and everything else. And it was challenging because it was Boston, it was in the winter, it was minus whatever degrees, it was freezing, and sometimes it was snowing. You are trying to laser scan a ship that's bombing on the water and it's, and it's wet so it's shiny and lasers hate shiny stuff. And you're like, this is nuts, right?

Graham

Well, yeah, especially back then, right? I mean, that movie came out in 2002, right?

Matt Wright

So something like that. It's a way back. So, these laser scanners back then were, you know, they were 40, 50 pounds in weight apiece. And then you had a 40 or 50-pound battery pack that went along with it, right? So these were, these weren't like your little iPhone with its lidar scanner on, right? Like, this was a different time. And what was really interesting though was that we got a week on this boat, the Navy was there, and they answered all of our questions. They showed us around the boat. They had a CD with blueprints and plans of all of the different bits of the boat and everything. Like, it was just fascinating.

We became complete boat nerds after a week, and we knew all of the names of like the little bits and pieces. And then, you know, we went back to our studio and rebuilt this boat over a month digitally. And it was a really unique experience just hanging out with the Navy guys, learning about the ship, and then actually getting to make it was super fun.

Graham

Yeah. I mean, I don't know much about sailing or anything like that, but the movie feels authentic. I mean, obviously, the ships and their functionality is one aspect, but that doesn't even get into the script. The acting, the costume design. I mean, the whole film felt like it was of the period it was trying to portray.

Matt Wright

I think that was one of the great things about the movie was that there was so much research done across the board, right? Like you said, with costuming. And it felt unique because it felt deadly, right? Like from talking to the Navy guys, they were giving us some details about what really happens when a cannonball hits a ship. Right? And it's not like Sea of Thieves, right? It's disastrous and things go bad really quickly. And, you know, even just firing a cannon, people lose limbs because they got in the way of this thing kicking backwards and everything else, right? Like, it was pretty brutal.

And I feel like Master and Commander was one of the first movies that really depicted that.

Graham

Yeah. I mean, there was a sense of danger in pretty much everything that the characters did.

Matt Wright

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Graham

Well, cool. So what made you want to get into games after that?

Matt Wright

This was pretty interesting and it leads on to some talk about the interview process and career progression and stuff like that. But I left film, I left the film company I was working for. I went back to the UK for a bit because of some visa issues.

And my girlfriend who worked in the industry at the time, she was like, “Hey, you, what do you wanna do?” She was, she was American and she was like, “Hey, what do you wanna do?” And I'm like, I don't know. And she's like, “I got family up in Seattle, you want to move up to Seattle and we can find a film studio up there to work for and see how things go.” And it's like, yeah, yeah, let's give that a go. It's like, I'm in my mid twenties, I got nothing better to do. So, we move up to Seattle and it becomes pretty apparent that there's no real film industry up in Seattle, right? Like we didn't do our research. We're like, what the heck? We'll just go there and do it.

Graham

When you said that, I was like, film in Seattle? Yeah, yeah. There's something I don't know about.

Matt Wright

No, I mean there's a good indie film industry up here, but not the kind that needed effects. So what there was, was a games industry, right? And at the time there was a pretty big disconnect between film and games, right? Like, now a lot of film industry is using Unreal for a bunch of previous stuff. So the tools and techniques are so much closer, but back then there was a big gap. And, you know, I put my resume in at a bunch of games companies and tech companies and, you know, got a few bites, I got a bite from Microsoft, they wanted me to come in in interview for a sports game that they were working on. I got an email from this company called Valve, and I'm like, oh, okay. Like, I seem to remember playing this game called Halflife.

I don't remember if I liked it or not. Like it was, all right, I'll tell you what I'll do. I'm gonna do Valve on a Wednesday and then I'm gonna do Microsoft on a Thursday and I'm gonna use Valve as a warmup for Microsoft. Cause I've heard of Microsoft and I know that Microsoft are huge. I don't know much about Valve, so I'm just gonna use 'em as a warmup. So this probably worked out to my advantage. I really think it did. Like, I was totally relaxed going into Valve. Cause I'm like, I don't know who these folks are, just gonna go in and chat with them about computer graphics and games and stuff.

Like, it's gonna be a cool, cool day, just chatting with them. And so I went in completely relaxed, talked to a bunch of really cool people there, and got quizzed about how I designed a city that would be fun for gameplay and stuff. So we went over a bunch of that stuff and I asked to see some stuff that they were working on and, and they're like, okay. I remember Halfllife. I remember really liking it. And then I'm thinking actually, like, this is right towards the end of the interview. I'm like, Valve's kind of a big deal, I guess. Like, these guys, these guys are actually, I'm like, holy, holy crap. Then suddenly for like the last 15 minutes, I was nervous. And, and a couple of days later I, I got a call back from Val saying, Hey, we really like you. You seemed really passionate about what you do.

We'd love for you to come and work for us. So, that started the whole games thing for me.

Graham

So Microsoft didn't matter at this point once Valve gave you the offer, right?

Matt Wright

I went and interviewed at Microsoft and it was for, I don't remember at the time if it was American football or basketball, but I'm, I'm not a sports person at all. And the guy that was interviewing me was like, oh man, you must be so crazy about American football or basketball, whatever. Like, I couldn't give a crap about it. Like, this isn't, this isn't me. Like I don't care about this. So, so, so that interview was, it was very much like a mutual, Hey, I'm not interested in this, I'm not the right fit for your studio. And they're like, yeah, you're not the right person for us. And we're like, all right, see ya. So, you know, I'm glad Valve worked out.

Graham

So how did you prepare for that first interview with Valve?

Matt Wright

I had my portfolio and I didn't wanna do anything digitally because I had a bunch of shots from movies that hadn't been released yet, and pictures of my work for movies that hadn't been released yet. I'm like, I don't want these up on the internet being emailed to somebody. So, I had my full on old art portfolio of large prints and I went in and just chatted to them. And it was really interesting talking to different people there and learning about the different disciplines in games. And the first interview I had was with a designer called Robin.

And we sat down and we went through my portfolio and what I'd done. And he was like, so design me a city, like a city that has maybe got some futuristic elements to it. What do you think would be cool in a game? Right? And I, I still remember this. I'm like, ah, you know what would be kind of cool, if you had this city, you're looking down a street and there's a subway underneath the street, but there's grates throughout the street where the light from the subway comes up. So every time a subway train comes through, light gets cast up into the buildings, it's at night, light gets cast up into the buildings.

And that's the only thing that illuminates the world. So as you're playing, if you're trying to be stealthy, you can only move in the dark, right? So, you can hear a train coming, you know that you've gotta get into the dark, the light goes past, you can, you can then see where all the enemies are. The enemies can kind of see where you are if you're not hiding. And then you can move on. And so we jammed on that idea for like 40 minutes. And I remember just thinking like, this is really fun, right? I think it's probably because I'm just using it as a warmup for Microsoft.

This is just me chatting with a guy, right? And so there was that, and then I had lunch with a bunch of artists. We went out and got some burgers on the side of a lake. I'm like, this is idyllic. I'm loving this, right? And so just chatted with a bunch of artists about the difference between the film industry and the games industry and history and all of that stuff. And it's like, that seemed great. I go in and I talk to a producer there, Bill, and this was, this was pretty funny, like Bill and I have quite a history now from working at Valve for so long, but I, I sit down with Bill and he seems pretty austere, right? And, and he is really not, like, once he got to know him, he was this lovely guy, but he was going through my resume and I was like, huh, industrial design, huh? Looking at my resume. I think he thought that maybe I was BSing in with my qualifications or something, right? So, so he pulls in an art director who also had an industrial design degree, and this art director grills me on industrial design for like 30 or 40 minutes, right? And then bill's like, okay, yeah, onto the next person now. I walk out and I'm like, that was weird. That was kind of uncomfortable.

And I'm like, okay, that maybe didn't go so well. And then, you know, I go on and I do do a few more interviews and clearly like, it, it worked out cuz at Valve if one or two people say no, then you're just, you're just gone and your day's over. And, you know, my interview ended with a chat with Gabe at the end. So I'm like, okay, clearly this went well. But Bill was, Bill was funny. Like I, I had that with him and then like, I kept messing up in front of him, right? Like I'd walked down the corridor and when I was working there and like, oh man, it's Bill.

And I walk down the corridor and I trip over a piece of carpet and land flat on my ass and I turn around and Bill, Bill would be standing there, right? Or they had these, they had these Thursday team lunches where everybody would like meet in the kitchen and you'd have lunch and everything. And I had this paper plate and I loaded up with some spaghetti. It was like spaghetti and meatballs and this is like the first week I'm down, I'm looking around for people that I know. I'm new, I'm young, I'm nervous. These are all really talented people. And I look into a conference room, it's called the Fishbowl and it's called The Fishbowl because there's these huge flying glass doors all the way around the room, right? And I look into the room and I see like four people sitting at table in there that I know. And I'm like, cool people.

I know I'm not gonna have to be the dweeb that sits by myself in the corner or whatever. And I walk into that conference room, I didn't realize the glass door was shut. And I walk straight into the glass door with my plate of spaghetti, spaghetti splats up against the glass door, right? And it's like this huge like tomato sauce mark on there. I'm like, oh man. And then this voice next to me is like, Matt, are you okay? And I turn around and it's Bill, right? I'm like, god damn it, like every time in front of this guy. But it was, it was super funny. Anyway, that was, I've just made a long story longer.

Graham

Oh no, that was funny. It's a good thing you had a good interview though. You kept messing up in front of Bill.

Matt Wright

Yeah, I know, right?

Graham

Yeah. Well, well with all seriousness, now that the interview process sounds a bit grueling but also sounds very thorough for Valve to make the best possible decision. You know, you sort of have this brainstorming exercise with the city to get a sense of how you'd work lunch with the artists to see if you get along with them and answer any questions they might have. And then the last one goes deeper into your background, and paints a complete picture of who you are.

Matt Wright

And their interview process was very much around kind of, not just whether you know your work, but just your thought process and how you go about thinking about stuff and everything else. Right. And you know, Valve was certainly this one studio that really made me think about my process for not only understanding environments but also just the work that I do as well, right? Like there's, there was a lot of consideration around that.

Graham

Sure. Definitely, definitely. Yeah. Okay, so let's flip the script here. In terms of interviews where you're on the other side of the desk, tell me about how some of those went. Let's start with the bad ones. Yeah, always gotta start with the bad ones, but what are some things people should not do when they're interviewing?

Matt Wright

I've been fortunate enough to interview a lot of people through my career. I love interviewing people, I love talking to people about the industry and the process and everything. So it's something that I always sign up for and there's definitely been some really good ones and there's been some really, really awkward ones as well.

And I think like the first thing for me is just being a good artist or being a good designer isn't enough, right? Like, you've gotta be able to communicate really well.

And when I was at Amazon, we interviewed one artist, phenomenal, came super recommended by people that work there and some other people that I know, but the guy just lived for his work, right? Like, he was so good and I would, I would love to work with this guy again. But we, we got him into interview, would ask him questions, he'd give kind of one word answers. He wouldn't look at you like he didn't seem like he really cared about being at Amazon or coming to Amazon and working there, or maybe just even being part of the team and across the board. He got given a no hire, right? And I'm like, holy crap, this is ridiculous. Like, we've gotta hire this guy. He's such a good artist, right? And I think one of the things that's interesting is with these larger tech companies, so so much of the interview processes is for engineers or for production or something like that. And artists are just different people, right?

Like we're a bunch of kind of weird individuals that, you know, maybe have some social awkwardness and everything else and we've gotta allow for that in the interview process.

But Amazon wasn't really there yet and he got a no hire across the board and my boss at the time, and I took this guy out for dinner and said, you're really good. You failed hard at this interview process, not because you're a terrible artist, but cuz you just didn't talk about your work. And we had dinner, we gave him a bunch of pointers and then he came back to interview a month later or so and he aced it. He got all the way through. Everybody loved him. And it was because he was a lot more open. Like he would talk about his work, he'd seem a lot more interested.

So that's key, right? Like just being able to communicate is super, super important. And another one I think is being willing to talk about your process, right? Like, I hope Gabe doesn't come after me for this one, when I was at Valve, the owner wanted to get to know the artist better. So we had like these artist lunches with Gabe where we'd sit down in a conference room, I think it was catered from what I remember, everybody would eat their lunch and Gabe would ask us a bunch of questions about what we're working on and everything else. And you know, you could either see it as like a grilling from Gabe or Gabe just paying real interest in what we do. And I think it was the latter like Gabe was really interested in just learning about different people at the studio and everything else. And I remember I was working on doing LODs, which if you don't work in 3d, it's just removing 3D data from a model so that when it's further away it's cheaper, right? And it's a bit of a mundane process.

You just kind of delete edges and faces and stuff from a model. And so Gabe was asking what I was working on, I said, I was like, oh, I'm, I'm working on LODs. And it's like, oh, what's your process for that? I'm like, well, I just take out faces until it's got down to a certain polycount. It's like, yeah, but how do you choose what bits to remove? I'm like, well, I just like look at it and think that that face is pretty small. I'm gonna delete that one. And he is like, how do you know when you're done? I'm like, I haven't really thought about it. Like I just remove as much as I can, I guess. And, and I, and we left the, we we left the lunch and another artist was like, man, that was a bit rough, wasn't it? And I remember thinking it was, was Gabe just having a bad day and was picking on me or something? And, and then I stopped and I thought that wasn't it at all. Right? Like, Gabe, to an engineer is so process driven, like I should be able to articulate my process better, right? Like, clearly I had a process for this, but I just never really thought about it.

And it was that point that really pushed me into thinking that like, process is important. Being able to talk about a process is just as important because you are working with a team and you're gonna want to share knowledge and educate other people and express what you're doing and everything else. So like, being able to talk about your process is hugely important. And if you don't think you have a process, I would say stop and really think about what you're doing because everything that we do in life has a process to it. We just maybe don't think about it.

Graham

Do you think he did that to get you to think about your process? Or do you think it was more so he was interested in what your process was?

Matt Wright

I think he was interested in what the process was and then probably saw that I had a difficult time articulating what it was and was trying to help me get better at that. Right. And I appreciate it. Like, that must have happened 12, 13 years ago and I still remember it. So it was an important lesson for me. The other big one for interviewers is don't lie. I remember one interview, we, we interviewed an artist and they were talking about a P B R shader that they had developed.

And this artist picked the wrong people to talk about this too. I had just got off the bat giving a lecture on PBR process to our crew at Amazon. I was doing the interview with a technical art director who writes PBR shaders for a living. And this artist was clearly just making up a bunch of stuff, right? And, you know, we sat there very gracefully. When I'm interviewing somebody, I'm never gonna point out to them that somebody's lying. I'll make a note of it and we'll talk about it as a team later, but I'm never gonna make somebody feel bad. But we're halfway through this and my, my cohort, Jeremy was asking this artist a few questions about it and the artist became flustered and turned around and said, okay, clearly you guys know what you're doing and I'm kind of BSing you here. I'm sorry.

So, it was really awkward and, I felt so bad for this artist because it's like, there's nothing worse than lying in an interview and then getting found out for it. Like how uncomfortable is that? We, we are super nice. We're like, Hey, let's just move on and let's do some other stuff. And it's, you know, they were doing great until then. So, you don't need to lie about stuff. Like if you don't know something, you don't know something, there's nothing wrong with that. Like, be honest about it.

Graham

Yeah. It's really ironic when something like that happens, you know, if, if your greatest fear is that the people that are interviewing you are going to find out that you might not know as much as you think you should know. So you think, oh, I gotta make something up to make myself sound smarter. But the problem is, if you do that and they call your bluff on it, then your greatest fear actually comes true. It's just, it's just a hell of a lot smarter to be honest. I mean that's, that's just the best tactic to have there.

Matt Wright

It really is. Right. And I think that's one of the interesting things in this industry. You can't know everything, be honest and say, I don't know that, but I would love to learn it. Like I want to be able to take some time to learn this. Right?

Graham

Right. But I can relate to someone who does that for sure. Cuz the insecurity is real and you get caught up in your insecurity and you could wind up doing the wrong thing. It's just something that can happen.

Matt Wright

Right. I can definitely see how somebody would get into that state and it can also just snowball as well. Like you could start by one little tiny white line in interview and then you get quizzed on that further and now you're having to build on top of it and suddenly it becomes rather anxious and awkward.

Graham

If you're playing the dirt long enough, you're gonna get dirty.

Matt Wright

Exactly. Exactly.

Graham

Alright, one more bad interview story. There's gotta be one more that really stands out.

Matt Wright

This one artist came recommended. And this is probably another thing, like, be super nice and be lovely because people are gonna recommend you. And that's how most people get hired is through recommendations from other people. So this artist came highly recommended for some other talented folks that were there at turn 10. And I'm like, oh man, I'm really, really excited to interview this guy. And I'm sitting down at the table, the guy's running a little bit late, there's three of us that are doing the preliminary interview. We're sitting there, this guy walks in, flops down into a chair. His butt is barely on the chair, like he's almost horizontal in the chair. He pulls up his hoodie, like closes up his hoodie, like almost over his face. And he is just slouching back in the chair. And I'm like, who is this guy?

Like, this is so weird.

Graham

Yeah. I'm having a hard time visualizing that. That's so, that's so odd.

Matt Wright

It's so odd. He came across like he just didn't give a damn. The whole interview, he's just like slouched back in the chair and he is kinda like, whatever. And I leave the interview, I'm like, can we hire this guy? I'm all for like individual quirks and everything, but like, this is kind of weird. And you know, the guy that I work with, was like, trust me, he's a great artist. He's just a bit of a kook. I'm like, all right, I'm a bit of a kook. Let's do this. We hired him. Phenomenal artist, great team player, you know, he just had this like, super casual way about him and he wasn't being obnoxious and he didn't mean to come across like he didn't give a damn. It was just, it was how he did it. So I'd say just don't do that. Like even if that is you. Like, just be attentive, sit up, look at somebody in the eye if you're comfortable doing that and pay attention and seem like you want to be there.

Graham

Right, right. Yeah. So let, let's put the narrative here a little bit. Let's talk about some good interviews you've been a part of.

Matt Wright

One of my favorites was at Amazon and this guy came in, he was interviewing for like the UI lead position. He'd been recommended by an art director there at Amazon. He comes in the poor guy, like he was scheduled for an interview with us the week before, but on his way over to the interview, his Uber had crashed and he had ended up in hospital because of it. So he was coming in, he had one crutch, he was still having to walk on a crutch from the accident from the week before. And he comes in and he has probably the best portfolio I've ever seen in my life and I've seen some good ones. And he sits down and he plugs his laptop in.

He's super organized. He pulls his laptop up, he greets everybody, talks to everybody. First of all, he wants to hear what everyone's done and what they do in the company. And he talks to them a little bit about that. And then he sits down, plugs his laptop in. He's got a folder on his laptop where everything is organized into his work. And he's, and he just starts talking through it. And it's like this, this is a professional, right? Like he knows what he's doing, he's super organized, he's focused and he, he talks through his work, he stops, he lets people ask him questions about it. The work is beyond gorgeous, right? Like he's really, really talented, but he's super humble and he's so nice, right? And he was amazing to talk to for that hour.

And I remember walking out of that interview thinking, I've done a couple of hundred interviews easily in my life and this guy is in the top three I would say. And I would, I would give my left kidney to work with him. Thankfully I didn't have to give my left kidney to work for him.

Graham

So, so what made his portfolio so good beyond the work in it?

Matt Wright

So the work was really good. He did a really good job of talking through, so he was UI design and he did a great job of talking through why he designed things a certain way that he did, so some of it that he did was like stuff, a film, some of it was for games. And he talked through his process a lot about not only like, oh, I used this tool and Adobe Illustrator to draw this circle. No, forget that. Like we know you can do that crap. It was more like getting down and really understanding what the project is and making sure that the work that you are doing is the right thing for that project. Right. And he was really good at expressing that.

And it was clear that every piece of work that he did for a different film, whether it was this quick contract that he did in a day or two, or whether it was something where he was embedded for months on end, like he really understood what he was working on and because of that, his work just shows, right? Like that was awesome.

I had another one, a tech artist at Amazon and I was called in. I didn't even know actually that we were looking at hiring a tech artist and I was asked to give this guy a phone screen cuz I was probably one of the more technical artists on the team. I'm like, Hey, can you screen this guy and see if he's a good fit for us? So the phone screen was meant to be 20 minutes and I think we talked on the phone for just under two hours and he was just a super, super interesting guy to talk to. Had a really good history. But just his tech art knowledge around graphics, which was obviously my expertise, was phenomenal. And it was just, it was amazing just hearing about his experiences. And then we spent a good hour talking through like up upcoming graphics trends and games and then some of the shade of stuff that he had done for certain effects and everything else. And that was a phenomenal interview for me and I just phone screened him, right? Like he was brilliant and again, just another person that was really able to articulate his thought process and his work really well. And I think that's, that's so key, right? Like being able to take an incredibly complex task and explain it to a layman that knows nothing about what you're talking about, right? And like his technical knowledge is obviously, you know, vast compared to mine.

But he was able to explain some of these hugely complex mathematical stuff that he had done in graphics really plainly for me to be able to understand and be interested in it and ask questions more and more. So little of interviews I think is really about the work that you do and it's more about how you articulate yourself and you know, whether you're gonna be good in that team. Right?

Graham

Right. So all goes back to what you were saying about communication.

Matt Wright

I think most artists they understand that the fact that you are talking to somebody at this company, it means that your portfolio was of a good enough quality to get you that far. Right? Because we've all reviewed your portfolio before we even do a phone screen, even if it's a phone screen with HR versus an artist or something. So your work's already good. The rest I'll say 90% of the rest of it is just whether you're a good fit for the studio and how well you communicate and work with others.

Graham

What about the application process? What are some of the most important things for people to do to actually land the interview?

Matt Wright

Oh, that's a great question. So there's a couple of things. The first one is be organized, right? I've done interviews where somebody's come in and they've sat down and they're like, oh yeah, I'm just gonna pull up my Google drive with my work. And I'm like, oh great, go ahead. And their laptop won't connect to our wifi at Amazon or something, right? I'm like, that's awkward. Do you have it on the computer? And they're like, no, I only have it on my Google Drive. I'm like, oops, that's not great. Or somebody else forgot their password on how to get into their portfolio, right? I'm like, probably should have worked harder at this one. So be organized and like, one of the big things I see from guys coming out of, you know, a game design school or something is that you get like a little bit of an education in everything, right? So, and unless you are at a very focused group, like a, like a nomen or something where you're just doing a course in environment art, you might do a bit of environment art, you might do some characters, you might do some lighting, you might do a bit of animation and people chuck all of this stuff into their portfolio, right? And it's like, that's great. I understand it.

Like this is what you've been doing the last few years, but show some focus in your portfolio around what it is that you want to do, right? So no longer do environment artists build characters and animate characters and light scenes and everything else, right? Like there's a lot more specialist roles now. So tailor your portfolio to what it is that you're doing right? And you don't have to have a huge body of work, right? Like you can legitimately get hired off one piece of work. And we've done that. Like, we hired a guy at Valve who I saw his work on CG talk. I don't, I don't even know if CG talk is around anymore, but it was a forum for graphics.

He'd done this amazing animation of this kind of circuit board with the little pieces under, I dunno why I'm doing hand motions, you guys can't see me, but kinda like these pieces unfolding on the circuit board and it becomes this little mechanical thing with character in it just kind of trots off the screen and it's beautifully modeled, beautifully textured, beautifully rendered. I'm like, holy crap. And just the idea behind it was really awesome, right? I'm like, this guy's amazing. He was a British guy and we flew him out and I'm like, yo, bring some other work with you. He comes over and it's like, yeah, I've got a few other pieces from a game that I've been working on, but I don't really wanna show him because they're not really at the quality bar that I'm comfortable showing. I just wanna show this one animation and like, this could be risky, but let's do it. And the work was so good.

It showed so much of his personality, how he designs things and everything else that he was an easy hire across the board, right? And this is off one piece of work. This guy went on to design so much of Portal 2, the visuals for Portal 2, all of the mechanical stuff and everything else, like insanely talented person got hired off literally one piece of art in his portfolio. So you don't need a massive amount of work in your portfolio, you just need stuff that really shows the level that you're at. And I would say have a friend look through the portfolio with you or even better have somebody that you don't know look through the portfolio and give you some honest advice, right? We all have pieces of work that are in our portfolio because we have some emotional connection to them, the person that's reviewing your portfolio has no emotional connection to your work whatsoever. They're just looking at it and thinking, is that a good piece of work or not? So have somebody go through and say, that's good. That's rubbish. That's rubbish, right? Like, just trim it down to just a few good pieces of work because people are gonna go back to that bad piece of work all the time. They'll say, okay, done those two bits that are great, but what happened there? Like, why is that?

Graham

Like, why is this even in here? Yeah.

Matt Wright

Yeah. Don't, don't put it in there. You're just casting doubt on yourself. Like one or two really good pieces of work. That's fine. I will see that and I'll be like, that's great.

Graham

Right. What about cover letters? Is that something you put a lot of stock in when you're looking at applications?

Matt Wright

I do love a nice cover letter and one that's honest. There was one that came to me, just said, look, I just need a job, right? And I'm like, you know what? At least you're honest, right? Like, this is, on one hand, it's a terrible cover letter, but at least you're honest. The cover letter is there to show that you've done some research in the company, you know what the company is about, like tailor your cover letter to that studio. Why are you a good fit for the studio that you're looking at? Right?

Instead of just, it's, it's so easy on the internet now to spam an application after 20 or 30 studios. Like the cover letter is there to show that you're putting some intent into the idea of working at this place. And, and that's hugely important.

Graham

Yeah. I think that's one of the biggest mistakes someone can make is writing one cover letter and then just mass sending it out. If you don't tailor it to the studio you're applying to, someone's gonna read the first two sentences, see that as generic as hell and just toss it out.

Matt Wright

It's gonna happen, unfortunately. So yeah, the cover letter is super important.

Graham

What about interview preparation? What tips do you have for someone who might be preparing for their first interview at a game studio?

Matt Wright

There's definitely some tips out there. I've learned recently that there are people that I think you pay a thousand dollars to and they'll give you like a fake Amazon interview and a whole bunch of engineers looking at joining Amazon are like, oh yeah, I'll pay a thousand dollars, do a fake Amazon interview so I can see what the Amazon interview process is like. Don't do that. You don't need to spend a thousand dollars doing that. Like that's absolutely insane. Like, good on you for having a thousand dollars to spend on that rubbish.

Graham

Yeah, spend it somewhere else.

Matt Wright

Maybe you don't need a job after all. But yeah, spend it somewhere else. But definitely like, if you are uncomfortable talking about yourself and talking to other people, practice, right? Like have a friend do a mock interview for you and, and just practice, right? Like practice talking about your work, talking about your process, and then have your friend give honest feedback and actually listen to it. The big thing for me was something that, like, the interview process at Amazon was pretty interesting. It was very situational based. And he used this process called Star, which was situation, action and results. So you would ask a candidate like a question, it's like, Hey, tell me about a time you disagreed with your boss, right?

And most of these questions are all around how, how you deal with other people and how you deal with incidents and everything else. Cuz that's really at the crux of it. That's probably what you're gonna be interviewed on because again, you've gone in the door because clearly you know your work. You might have a portfolio review, you might have a few questions about how you bake a normal map or something like that, but you're probably not gonna get asked a bunch of questions that all pertain to how you deal with people or certain situations that come up. So really talking about it in this situational thing where it's like, yeah, I had this one thing that happened, so this was the situation.

And then you talk about how you deal with it, and then you talk about the results. You build this little story around this one thing that happens so people can really understand how you work within a team, how you work with others, and how you solve problems. I think that's really key, but just practice, right? And be relaxed. Like don't be as relaxed as dude that comes in and slouches in the chair with his hoodie up over his head, but don’t be uptight and nervous. Like I know it's nerve-wracking doing an interview, but you are really just talking, hopefully you're talking to a bunch of nice people about an industry that you just love.

Graham

So let's say someone gets in, they get hired for their first job in terms of sticking around the industry, beyond just doing your work at a really high level, what do you need to do to stick around at a studio? I know sometimes people bounce around from studio to studio, sometimes things are outta control. So that can always happen, but just building up a good reputation in the industry, things like that.

Matt Wright

I think it's, it's interesting, right? Like you mentioned that people bounce around from studio to studio, that that can be a negative. Like if you look at somebody's portfolio and they're like, oh, they spent six months here, they've spent nine months there, they've spent a year there. But we're like, okay, are we gonna invest a bunch of time on this person only for them to bump onto another studio? So it's like, I, I get it. Like, you know, things happen. Maybe you've gotta move and maybe the studio closed and whatever, but if that is in your history, be prepared to answer questions about it, obviously. But like, the space for just being a really good artist is pretty small. And I, and I say that where it's like, okay, say you are just a phenomenal prop artist and you just wanna make props.

So you come into a studio, you're making props, you're doing a bang up job. The problem is you are one person. So much of that work that you are doing gets outsourced. It used to be the out outsourcing was never quite at the same quality grade as the stuff that you do internally. And  you'd use it for a bunch of filler stuff and everything else. And the internal artists would be the ones that would do the really high end work. And that's definitely still the case, but the quality difference now between outsource studios and internal studios is so close, right? So, you know, there's phenomenal artists at outsource studios that are doing really, really good work. So understand that in terms of your career, you might end up getting replaced by somebody on the other side of the world because they're doing work that's maybe not the same quality as you, but it's good enough quality for the game and they're doing it at a third of the price, right? So you then have to say, unfortunately, where's my value? Right? Like, is my value in just creating these one art assets, or can I have a bigger impact on this team?

And that's where you should be looking to keep your career going. It's like, how can I have a big impact on this team? The biggest one is, it sounds cheesy, but being a team player and helping the whole team learn and get better. So if you are amazing at this one thing, don't keep that information to yourself. Don't be that person. Share it with the team. Help the team like foster this idea of learning and communication and sharing and everything else. I've been on art teams where people close off and they've developed this cool new technique and it's like, hey, this is my thing to keep me at this studio. Like if anybody else learns this, then I'm not as needed at this studio.

That's bs, right? The best thing you can do is to share your knowledge and encourage other people to share knowledge and develop that side of the studio. And that is like absolutely, absolutely crucial.

You know, I think other questions that you should be asking are, is what I'm doing the best thing for the game, right? But say you're working on a game project is like spending a week polishing this hubcap? The best thing for this game? Probably not, right? So talk to your boss and talk to your lead or whoever and be like, yo, I think I'm working on the wrong thing here. Like, I think it would be better for you to put me on onto this. Like, what do you think about this? And being that proactive with your work, I think is super, super helpful. And just always look at not only how you can improve your work, but how you can be this force multiplier for other people, right? So it's like, I'm gonna make all of this game better, not just by polishing up a cap.

I think that's super, super important.

Graham

I actually wanted to go back to something you said earlier about someone developing a pipeline or a technique or something helpful, but they feel like they have to keep it to themselves. Where do you think that mindset comes from?

Matt Wright

I think that mindset comes from a couple of things. I think on the outset, artists are generally pretty insecure people about their work. And almost every artist I know thinks they're total crap, right? We all have imposter syndrome, especially really good artists. They're like, oh man, I'm crap. And it's like, it's so easy to think that these days you can open up Artstation and within five seconds you are viewing work that is better than yours, right? And it's like, okay, it's really easy. And I do it, I have major imposter syndrome.

You can look at somebody else's work and be like, I dunno how to do that. I couldn't do that. I'm rubbish, right? So, so then you develop this one thing where it's like, I did this one thing, it looks really good. Maybe I'm not as rubbish. I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep this cuz this is making me feel good. It's making me feel better. And it's the one thing that is I think making me a better artist, right? So there's definitely that mentality on a personal level, but then you also have to look at the team and the studio as a whole and say, is this studio fostering this mentality? Right? Like, is how this art team is led and is how the studio led as a whole fostering this weird mentality where people are so nervous about their jobs, they're doing whatever they can to appear better than the person next to them and everything else. And you're like, I've worked in teams like that and it's not great. It's, it's not a comfortable feeling. Right?

And I think a lot of that mentality is leaving game studios now, which is really good, right? Like there's a lot more maturity in game studios and there's just not room for that thinking anymore, right? I think it's twofold and I would really hope that any game studio that has a mentality like that will do a lot of work to get rid of it because it's hugely damaging.

Graham

That's pretty much what I was thinking too. And it's kind of like, well, what if someone is in a bad place and they feel like I've gotta hold onto this for me because there is no team-first attitude here?

Matt Wright

Yeah. Then like, I would hope that that person has, you know, a good enough support structure at work, whether it's their lead or if it's a pretty flat structure. Maybe other artists can just stop and say, Hey, how about we view this situation differently? Right? Like, how about you see this as like you think this one thing is the, the main reason that you are being kept at the studio. If you shared that with a bunch of other people and you are making 10 artists better instead of just yourself better, do you think that is better for your career? Or do you think it's better just to hold onto this one thing and hopefully they're gonna say improve the 10 other people because that's the right answer. Right?

Graham

Right, right. What about cross-disciplinary communication? How much do you know about engineering and how does that help you in your day-to-day role?

Matt Wright

That is huge. Being able to work with other teams is probably the most important thing that you can do. Right? I am not the best artist out there, but I pride myself in being able to work with just about anyone, even if they're a total joke, especially like a cross platform. I will work with engineers, I'll work with tech artists, I'll work with designers on stuff, and I don't need to understand the complexities of C++ code, that's their job, but I need to be able to communicate with them about what they're doing. I'll explain my art processes in a system, in a way that they can understand coming from outside of the art processes.

They'll explain some of the engineering problems with this in a way that I can understand and will kind of meet in the middle and go over it. So, you know, especially as you move up in your career and you start having to deal with larger projects, you're gonna have to deal with cross discipline stuff and you're gonna have to deal with people that think differently to you because they're engineers, not artists. So definitely work on that, right? I think the big thing there is be nice, right? Like even if other people aren't being nice, be nice and if somebody says something that you completely and utterly disagree with, think about why they said it. Because they've said that because they think it's the best way of doing something or this is what they know. Don't blast them for it. They're coming at this problem wanting to do the best. This is how they're gonna approach it. You are gonna approach it differently.

Try and understand where they're coming from and why they want to approach it in that way instead of just being like, oh, Mike's being a jerk because he thinks this, which is clearly wrong. It's like that's not the right way to walk into one of these situations at all.

Graham

Yeah. I think taking things personally at work is one of the worst things you can do, but it's also an extremely hard thing not to do because we put so much of ourselves into the work. But you're exactly right. I mean, you have to separate yourself from your work when you're talking to people Yeah. And be able to take in their perspective and understand why they have that perspective or else you're just not gonna have good communication and you're not gonna have a good team.

Matt Wright

Exactly. Like that's super important and, and you grow along, right? You understand the industry so much better when you do have these cross-communicative talks with other people and having to deal with larger systems like dealing with the, you mentioned the wet system on Forza, right? Like this was an accumulation of me as an artist, a couple of tech artists and a couple of graphics engineers, and then designers as well, right? It's never really just one person working on a big system anymore, right? So yeah. Like get into a room and, you know, speak their language a little bit and educate them on some of your language and process as well.

Graham

Yeah. One of the things I liked pre-covid was if I had a question for an engineer and I, you know, I worked in product management, so actually how they did their work always went up over my head a little bit, but I could always go over to the engineer and have them explain their work to me like I'm five so I can get their perspective about why things weren't working if they weren't working, or talk about why a task is taking so long or, or whatever. So that I could be a little more informed about the issue. And I found doing things like this is just so critical to have a functioning team.

Matt Wright

It is. And I think it's critical for your understanding of the task, but I think it's also critical in building that relationship with other people in your studio because it shows that you have an interest in what that other person is doing. Right. And that's important. And it's harder as we all are kind of still remote. Like I'm at Bad Robot, we're a remote-first studio, so we deal with everything remotely and you know, we do a lot of work through Slack, but if there's a complex thing that comes up, you can guarantee I'm on a video call with somebody and we're talking about it face-to-face and they'll screen share and it's kinda like I'm just looking over their shoulder at the office. I, and if you need to have a difficult conversation with somebody, never do it by text. Right? Like, that's, that's the worst thing. Like, angry emails or angry texts, don't do it.

Walk over to that person's desk or have a video call with them and chat with 'em about it. But do yourself a solid and maybe take a few breaths before you do it and have a cup of tea and, you know, calm down a bit before you have to do something like that.

Graham

Yeah. Yeah. It's also amazing how text can just be misinterpreted too.

Matt Wright

Exactly. I mean that's the main reason to never do it.

Graham

I've had plenty of those where it's like, is the person really pissed off or am I just interpreting it that way? Never a good idea. When you're trying to have a really important discussion, it's done over a message. Absolutely. Like, don't slack, message me. Zoom me. Yeah. Slack, call me.

Matt Wright

Yeah, I agree.

Graham

Well, Matt, thanks so much for stopping by to talk with us. It was cool to talk in-depth about the interview process in particular. We usually save that, you know, just for the end, but it was fun to build a show around that and hopefully, it was really helpful to the audience. I can't imagine why it wouldn't be. Thanks again, man. This was, this was so much fun.

Matt Wright

You're welcome. I've had a blast. Thanks for having me on.

Graham

All right, that's gonna wrap up this week's episode. We wanna thank Matt again for being our guest. To find out more about mudstack, head over to mudstack.com where you can follow us on Twitter, and LinkedIn, and join our community on Discord. And of course, we wanna thank you for listening. We'll see you next time on Clear as Mud.